1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:01,550 so you probably recognize what I'm 2 00:00:05,390 --> 00:00:03,090 seeing is kind of the circular element 3 00:00:07,099 --> 00:00:05,400 that okay on the one hand all blacks 4 00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:07,109 you've got good reason not to trust the 5 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:09,990 police and if you raise somebody to 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:12,090 believe you got to be careful about 7 00:00:17,990 --> 00:00:15,210 police you're gonna have situations 8 00:00:21,019 --> 00:00:18,000 where a guys running from police when he 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:21,029 should be doing exactly what the police 10 00:00:25,849 --> 00:00:22,890 said and if you run from the police 11 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:25,859 nothing good happens in those situations 12 00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:27,570 I would agree with you that nothing good 13 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:30,000 it happens that's for sure but enough 14 00:00:35,330 --> 00:00:32,610 times enough people have direct 15 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:35,340 experience in your own life and you have 16 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:38,730 your own experiences with very negative 17 00:00:43,549 --> 00:00:41,370 interactions with the police because see 18 00:00:45,740 --> 00:00:43,559 this work this is on both sides of the 19 00:00:47,810 --> 00:00:45,750 interaction this is not just black 20 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:47,820 people fearing the police police fear 21 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:50,250 black people too and I think we can talk 22 00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:52,530 a lot about that if you want things go 23 00:00:58,819 --> 00:00:55,920 wrong because this interaction has 24 00:01:00,319 --> 00:00:58,829 problems on both sides but when we're 25 00:01:05,230 --> 00:01:00,329 what we're talking about is the 26 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:05,240 situation where somebody like this kid 27 00:01:10,609 --> 00:01:08,610 has heard these stories I mean your 28 00:01:12,679 --> 00:01:10,619 initial question to me is why would he 29 00:01:16,580 --> 00:01:12,689 run why would anybody run you and I 30 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:16,590 wouldn't but lots of people just don't 31 00:01:21,950 --> 00:01:18,810 live in the same world that you and I do 32 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:21,960 and because of that there is fear and 33 00:01:27,230 --> 00:01:24,290 difficulty on both sides of these 34 00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:27,240 interactions and things tend to go real 35 00:01:31,010 --> 00:01:29,310 wrong and you look at what's in the 36 00:01:33,590 --> 00:01:31,020 media you look at what's get gets 37 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:33,600 reported you look at the things that go 38 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:36,990 terribly catastrophic ly wrong and too 39 00:01:41,450 --> 00:01:39,329 often it does seem to me it involves a 40 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:41,460 young person of color now they may have 41 00:01:45,889 --> 00:01:44,130 some of a blame in any given situation 42 00:01:48,830 --> 00:01:45,899 you're right any of those could be 43 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:48,840 different but when that happens that 44 00:01:53,389 --> 00:01:51,329 becomes a narrative that is in the 45 00:01:57,350 --> 00:01:53,399 person's head and they respond to it 46 00:01:59,060 --> 00:01:57,360 yeah but is there a risk that by talking 47 00:02:01,100 --> 00:01:59,070 about cases such as the one you talked 48 00:02:03,620 --> 00:02:01,110 about in your book by elevating these 49 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:03,630 rare situations to as you point out this 50 00:02:08,449 --> 00:02:04,890 is the exception rather than the rule 51 00:02:10,999 --> 00:02:08,459 that people tend to over blow in their 52 00:02:13,940 --> 00:02:11,009 mind the extent to which cops are racist 53 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:13,950 or you need to fear cops 54 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:16,290 etc when we all generally seem to 55 00:02:20,930 --> 00:02:18,510 subscribe to the idea that you know 99% 56 00:02:23,210 --> 00:02:20,940 are good there's bad apples but let's 57 00:02:26,210 --> 00:02:23,220 not let those bad apples ruin it for 58 00:02:28,070 --> 00:02:26,220 everybody else and let's not focus on 59 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:28,080 the bad apples let's focus on the 99% 60 00:02:33,890 --> 00:02:31,110 that are good I don't think there's 61 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:33,900 anything that I could do that would make 62 00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:37,050 that that experience that that that 63 00:02:42,020 --> 00:02:39,510 existing narrative greater than it 64 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:42,030 already is what you find when you talk 65 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:45,450 to black people is that from the time a 66 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:48,330 kid is 12 13 14 and certainly by the 67 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:51,090 time the kid is 15 and 16 getting ready 68 00:02:57,170 --> 00:02:54,090 to drive black parents sit their 69 00:03:00,170 --> 00:02:57,180 children down and they tell them here is 70 00:03:02,150 --> 00:03:00,180 what you do when you get stopped by the 71 00:03:05,390 --> 00:03:02,160 police and it isn't just the kind of 72 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:05,400 talking to that you and I got where your 73 00:03:09,290 --> 00:03:07,050 daddy your mom says do everything the 74 00:03:11,390 --> 00:03:09,300 police officer says and better not hear 75 00:03:14,780 --> 00:03:11,400 you're mouthing off these are survival 76 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:14,790 instructions they are where you put your 77 00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:17,370 hands and here's what you don't do and 78 00:03:23,090 --> 00:03:20,360 don't move what kind of thing is 79 00:03:26,690 --> 00:03:23,100 instructed into people from an early age 80 00:03:29,870 --> 00:03:26,700 because parents know the real danger out 81 00:03:34,009 --> 00:03:29,880 there it's already that deep the danger 82 00:03:36,410 --> 00:03:34,019 of me exaggerating it is nil I wanted to 83 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:36,420 tell this story because it's important 84 00:03:41,030 --> 00:03:39,930 as one thing we can get to see how we 85 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:41,040 can improve things 86 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:43,110 oh yeah and for sure I'm not I don't 87 00:03:46,250 --> 00:03:44,250 mean to call out your book I think 88 00:03:48,110 --> 00:03:46,260 talking about these things in and the 89 00:03:49,699 --> 00:03:48,120 issues that it raises is critical and 90 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:49,709 has the reason I don't wanna want to 91 00:03:56,569 --> 00:03:51,890 talk to you but you know I do think that 92 00:04:01,600 --> 00:03:56,579 anecdotal bad incidents between blacks 93 00:04:04,819 --> 00:04:01,610 and police Kent Kent ant can tend to 94 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:04,829 make it appear that this is a problem 95 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:07,110 that's bigger than it is when when you 96 00:04:10,849 --> 00:04:08,850 ask most people even experts such as 97 00:04:13,910 --> 00:04:10,859 yourself you would still say that hey 98 00:04:16,430 --> 00:04:13,920 99% are good you there's the 1% that are 99 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:16,440 that are bad but but I you brought up 100 00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:18,930 something that's top of mind for me as 101 00:04:22,009 --> 00:04:20,310 far as I something I wanted to talk 102 00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:22,019 about with you in this interview and 103 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:25,080 that is the talk because that's what 104 00:04:27,740 --> 00:04:26,130 it's kind of called these days and 105 00:04:31,460 --> 00:04:27,750 that's what you're referring to there 106 00:04:34,490 --> 00:04:31,470 like parents having the talk so start by 107 00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:34,500 just walking me through best that you 108 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:36,630 understand it from what you've heard and 109 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:40,770 so on what is the talk exactly what does 110 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:44,370 the parent say to the child well if 111 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:46,410 you'd like to actually have your 112 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:48,090 listeners or viewers get in a sort of 113 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:49,650 first-hand look there's a video out 114 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:51,690 there I'd highly recommend called dear 115 00:04:57,590 --> 00:04:54,660 child you can find it on YouTube what 116 00:05:00,260 --> 00:04:57,600 the talk is is how a parent will 117 00:05:04,370 --> 00:05:00,270 instruct the kid usually of driving age 118 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:04,380 about the realities of the world if they 119 00:05:08,450 --> 00:05:06,090 don't know them already they have to 120 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:08,460 know that police are going to pay extra 121 00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:11,330 attention to you because of how you look 122 00:05:15,980 --> 00:05:13,980 because you are black because you are 123 00:05:17,810 --> 00:05:15,990 brown you are going to get extra 124 00:05:20,390 --> 00:05:17,820 attention and some of that attention 125 00:05:23,090 --> 00:05:20,400 will not be positive in fact some of it 126 00:05:25,550 --> 00:05:23,100 is going to be very negative and what 127 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:25,560 the parent instructs the child to do is 128 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:29,730 to never lose their cool to do exactly 129 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:34,110 and only what the police officer says to 130 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:39,810 do to keep hands in view at all times 131 00:05:47,030 --> 00:05:43,590 unless instructed to do something else 132 00:05:50,719 --> 00:05:47,040 if something is said that is rude or 133 00:05:53,719 --> 00:05:50,729 nasty or even racist do not be provoked 134 00:05:55,580 --> 00:05:53,729 do not say anything nobody can win an 135 00:05:58,969 --> 00:05:55,590 argument on the street except a police 136 00:06:02,510 --> 00:05:58,979 officer and what we the parents are 137 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:02,520 worried about is your physical safety we 138 00:06:08,030 --> 00:06:05,130 want you to come home and therefore 139 00:06:09,500 --> 00:06:08,040 these instructions are paramount if we 140 00:06:11,659 --> 00:06:09,510 have a complaint we'll take it to the 141 00:06:14,980 --> 00:06:11,669 police department afterwards we'll be 142 00:06:19,010 --> 00:06:14,990 with you for that but out there you must 143 00:06:22,159 --> 00:06:19,020 survive you must survive because this is 144 00:06:25,370 --> 00:06:22,169 a situation in which young people of 145 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:25,380 color get killed and we don't want that 146 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:28,710 to happen to you that's really the guts 147 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:30,810 of it do we know whether Jordan miles 148 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:35,310 had had the talk what I do know is that 149 00:06:40,150 --> 00:06:38,010 he didn't drive yet so I don't think he 150 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:40,160 had I think I'd remember asked 151 00:06:45,490 --> 00:06:42,620 about that and in point of fact what I 152 00:06:47,860 --> 00:06:45,500 remember learning was that he was raised 153 00:06:49,530 --> 00:06:47,870 by his mother and his grandmother his 154 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:49,540 father wasn't really in the picture and 155 00:06:54,430 --> 00:06:52,850 his mother and grandmother he said and 156 00:06:56,860 --> 00:06:54,440 they repeated this to me in separate 157 00:06:59,820 --> 00:06:56,870 interviews and all we told him respect 158 00:07:02,500 --> 00:06:59,830 police they're there to help you and 159 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:02,510 there was a gentleman who was sometimes 160 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:04,430 in the home as a friend who was a police 161 00:07:08,830 --> 00:07:06,740 officer and Jordan said I admired him he 162 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:08,840 was a nice man and so forth so he 163 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:10,730 doesn't sound like the type of kid that 164 00:07:16,270 --> 00:07:14,210 would have run if he knew that they were 165 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:16,280 police I know you're saying doesn't it 166 00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:18,050 can be understandable that maybe he did 167 00:07:23,410 --> 00:07:21,020 run and know the police but really it 168 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:23,420 seems it seems that he did not know that 169 00:07:29,260 --> 00:07:27,050 they were police well that's one piece 170 00:07:33,270 --> 00:07:29,270 of evidence that would say he didn't 171 00:07:37,270 --> 00:07:33,280 know yes so going back to the talk I 172 00:07:39,910 --> 00:07:37,280 like everything about that talk except 173 00:07:40,390 --> 00:07:39,920 the part that I questioned is telling 174 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:40,400 your child 175 00:07:46,330 --> 00:07:43,010 I mean telling them what to do when 176 00:07:48,670 --> 00:07:46,340 interacting with police perfect why do 177 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:48,680 you need to add on top of that oh and by 178 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:50,930 the way you know police are going to be 179 00:07:55,090 --> 00:07:53,150 coming to get you and you're unique and 180 00:07:56,980 --> 00:07:55,100 different and you got to really watch 181 00:07:59,800 --> 00:07:56,990 out for them because they don't 182 00:08:01,290 --> 00:07:59,810 necessarily like your type or however 183 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:01,300 you going to say that but basically 184 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:05,570 alerting the child that police go after 185 00:08:09,820 --> 00:08:07,850 black people why is that part important 186 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:09,830 to tell the kid as opposed to simply 187 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:12,130 obey the police 188 00:08:19,659 --> 00:08:16,730 well because it's true for them I mean 189 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:19,669 that's the little we said where we said 190 00:08:25,330 --> 00:08:22,130 right but we're acknowledging that 99% 191 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:25,340 are good so you know to highlight the 1% 192 00:08:32,050 --> 00:08:27,620 bad I I just I'm just not sure that 193 00:08:35,110 --> 00:08:32,060 that's great for the psyche of a kid to 194 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:35,120 be I'm just not sure that's important to 195 00:08:37,839 --> 00:08:36,530 be highlighted to a kid as long as 196 00:08:40,930 --> 00:08:37,849 you've highlighted the most important 197 00:08:43,180 --> 00:08:40,940 part which is obey the police 198 00:08:47,110 --> 00:08:43,190 I just don't see the benefit of the 199 00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:47,120 other part well you and I aren't black I 200 00:08:53,770 --> 00:08:49,430 didn't instruct my kids that way either 201 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:53,780 and I wasn't instructed that way what 202 00:08:59,740 --> 00:08:56,630 the reality of black life in this 203 00:09:03,430 --> 00:08:59,750 country has been since time out of mine 204 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:03,440 that they suffer mistreatment at the 205 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:06,410 hands of police much more often and I 206 00:09:10,390 --> 00:09:07,730 don't know that I'd be nailed to the 207 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:10,400 figure of 99% I mean if we want to go 208 00:09:15,130 --> 00:09:12,170 into the statistics they're all there in 209 00:09:18,130 --> 00:09:15,140 the book what I would say is most police 210 00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:18,140 interactions go ahead and and and take 211 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:21,350 place without any incident but it's more 212 00:09:28,030 --> 00:09:24,230 likely to happen to people who are black 213 00:09:29,410 --> 00:09:28,040 and brown things go wrong and that's 214 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:29,420 just that's not something we could 215 00:09:34,150 --> 00:09:32,540 ignore and I don't think I'm in a 216 00:09:37,390 --> 00:09:34,160 position to tell black parents well 217 00:09:40,060 --> 00:09:37,400 you're going too far with that that if 218 00:09:42,010 --> 00:09:40,070 that is what happens to kids and a kid 219 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:42,020 is gonna say why I mean why should I why 220 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:44,390 do I have to show my hands what's really 221 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:47,210 going on with that mom or dad how would 222 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:49,610 the parent explain it you know well 223 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:51,440 let's talk about never had the reason to 224 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:53,350 let's talk about the difference between 225 00:10:00,160 --> 00:09:57,890 racism and stereotyping and do you see a 226 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:00,170 difference between those two because oh 227 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:04,970 yes yeah so it could very very possible 228 00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:07,970 be that blacks are a quote unquote 229 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:12,140 victim of stereotyping without it being 230 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:15,130 racism do you agree with that Oh 231 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:18,110 certainly yeah and you have to break 232 00:10:23,079 --> 00:10:21,140 racism down I think - I mean we're - I 233 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:23,089 think too likely in this country 234 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:25,850 especially people may be my age I don't 235 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:27,500 know about you but you know what people 236 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:29,810 think racism a lot of folks think well 237 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:31,610 you know you got to say that word out 238 00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:34,250 loud you got to be willing to express 239 00:10:39,070 --> 00:10:35,870 those kind of things like Archie Bunker 240 00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:39,080 in the old TV show that's one type of 241 00:10:47,020 --> 00:10:44,240 this problem one aspect of it but more 242 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:47,030 subtle forms of what we call implicit 243 00:10:50,950 --> 00:10:49,490 bias or stereotyping that can 244 00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:50,960 unknowingly 245 00:10:56,079 --> 00:10:53,120 alter our behavior those are two pretty 246 00:10:59,320 --> 00:10:56,089 closest things those have actually more 247 00:11:01,020 --> 00:10:59,330 of an impact than people really realize 248 00:11:03,790 --> 00:11:01,030 or understand they're very widespread 249 00:11:07,270 --> 00:11:03,800 throughout society including by the way 250 00:11:09,250 --> 00:11:07,280 in black communities - 251 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:09,260 the testing and the studying of these 252 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:11,930 things for decades now over millions and 253 00:11:15,850 --> 00:11:13,220 millions of experiments and